Episode Title

mo (06:32.286) Welcome to It Gets Late Early. Today I have a brilliant author with us - I have Kristi Coulter, who is the author of a book called Exit Interview, which is all about her experience of 12 years at Amazon, Amazon corporate. She's also an editorial coach, so she helps people with their books, as well as a professor of writing. So welcome to the show, Kristi. Kristi (06:54.946) Thank you, I'm excited to be here. mo (06:57.138) I'm thrilled you're here. And I bet Amazon is pretty bummed that they actually didn't give you an exit interview because what happened in lieu of that is this fantastic book here, which is both, I would say, a fair recounting of your experience at Amazon. I mean, you do say positive things about the place at points as well, and also an excoriating review of what it's like to work within the four walls of Amazon. So... Kristi (07:16.682) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristi (07:24.798) Mm-hmm. mo (07:26.442) I understand the impulse for writing this book for sure, especially in light of the fact that you weren't given that platform internally. And that's not unique, by the way. I know another person who spent 13 years at Amazon and likewise did not get an exit interview, but I mean, it's wild. Like, why wouldn't you wanna know what someone who had been there for so long and seen all the inner work, it makes no sense to me. It's mind boggling, but. Kristi (07:35.214) Right. Kristi (07:43.493) It's crazy. Kristi (07:47.775) Right. It really doesn't, no. Yeah. mo (07:55.65) beyond wanting to say your piece of what you experienced, why did you write this book? Kristi (07:58.659) Mm-hmm. Well, part of it is that we spend so much of our lives at work. And I think work is really interesting. And when I went looking for examples, like models I could use in writing this book, there were very few out there. There's memoirs about people who have really weird jobs, like being a mortician, something where there's novelty. And then there's memoirs of people who were... already famous for doing their jobs. Like people kept saying to me, what about that book that Catherine Graham wrote about running the Washington Post? And I was like, that's a great book, but like I'm not Catherine Graham, that's totally different. And so I just thought how strange it is that we don't have those stories. So much drama happens at work. You can meet your spouse at work, people have affairs at work, they act out their family dynamics. And mo (08:35.978) Hehehehe Kristi (08:51.606) And for women, especially, we just don't, there's a million memoirs about motherhood and or relationships and not a lot about what if you work and you wanna work and it's fascinating to you. So that was a lot of it. There's also the fact that Amazon is a pretty mysterious company. It keeps, plays its cards close to its vest. people leak from that place like crazy now. But when I was there, no one leaked. There were no documents leaking to the press. I mean, it was pretty buttoned down. And I thought I wanna get people, and I think it's a misunderstood company. I see a lot of black and white thinking about Amazon, either that it's the greatest thing that ever happened or that it's pure evil. And the fact is, it's neither, you know, in my view. And so I kind of wanted people to see like, well, here's what's actually going on. I mean, there were times when mo (09:38.065) Right, right, right. Kristi (09:44.886) we had something happen where George Orwell's book, 1984, was automatically pulled from every Kindle that had it. And yeah, and internally, we were all just like, it had to be that book, didn't it? It had to be an Orwell book. And it was exactly, like we were like, does God hate us? Like what's going on? And it was because of like a copyright issue. Like it was just a mix of a bad process, mo (09:49.195) I'm sorry. mo (09:54.682) Oh wow. mo (10:01.274) Wow, I mean, seriously. mo (10:11.698) Yeah, something mundane. Kristi (10:14.602) Yeah, exactly. And, but blogs were like, this is their message to the world that they can control the flow of ideas. And there's a lot of that kind of thinking. And I wanted people to see that it's often just people running around in chaos. It's not that Amazon is trying to control the flow of ideas in the world. It's that people messed up, you know, because it's chaotic. mo (10:18.454) That book. Seriously. mo (10:31.541) Yeah. mo (10:38.378) Yep, yep. Kristi (10:40.538) So there were a bunch of reasons like that. And I wanted to understand my own experience a little better. And it took me four years to write the book. So the nice thing is that by the time I finished, exactly, and any idea of, oh, this is my revenge, this is my exit interview, like that was long dead by the time the book was done, which is healthy, because writing purely out of revenge is probably not the way to go. I write a great book. mo (10:45.663) Yeah. mo (10:50.73) You vested. mo (11:02.462) Yeah. Yes. mo (11:09.894) Yeah, no, it's really not. But this was a great book. And I have to say, as a woman reading it, I felt it was so needed in the literary world. Because as you pointed out, this is something that so many people do every day. And there isn't just a lot written about it. And especially for women, I mean, we have very, I mean, what do we have, lean in? I mean, come on. Like, we need a little bit more that speaks to real people. So this was very much that. And I saw myself. Kristi (11:13.646) Thank you. Kristi (11:18.234) Mm-hmm. Kristi (11:23.694) Yeah. Kristi (11:28.46) Mm-hmm. Kristi (11:32.286) Yeah. mo (11:38.798) in you throughout the story. And I saw a great number of women that I've met in my corporate career throughout the story. And we just we needed someone to voice what is happening on the inside. And this is not unique to Amazon, what you experienced and what women experienced was not unique to Amazon. So I found it cathartic to read truly. Kristi (11:40.41) Hmm. Kristi (11:50.37) Yeah. No. Kristi (11:58.122) I've heard that a lot. I've also had women tell me like they found it slightly traumatizing to read, you know, they had to read it in little bits and pieces. Nora McInerney who does the, oh, the terrible things for asking podcast. She's great, but she blurbed the book and she was texting me saying, I am ignoring my children reading your book. Or at the end, she said that her heart rate got up so high that her fitness watch thought she was doing a quote, mo (12:03.499) PTSD is real. Yes. mo (12:13.123) No. mo (12:19.69) Hmm, yeah. Kristi (12:27.126) walk. Yeah, it was it was really kind of amazing. And I, it was I wrote it because I wanted to, I wanted other women to know that they're not crazy, you know, that they're not imagining things right. But I also really wasn't sure. I mean, up to the point the book was published, I thought, maybe it was just me, maybe I am crazy. And so hearing from so many people has been incredibly mo (12:28.636) Oh, that is amazing. I could see that. mo (12:41.086) Mm-mm. No more gaslighting. Mm-hmm. mo (12:51.278) All right. Kristi (12:56.738) But I feel less alone because of it. Yeah. mo (12:57.141) Yeah. Well, that is a wonderful side benefit of this book. And I mean, I can tell you, I've told so many people to read it for that reason. Like you'll get it and you'll see yourself in these stories and you'll see that it wasn't just you, that you weren't alone. And certainly some of these stories are rage inducing. I mean, and it brought me back to certain points in my career where I had similarly terrible, obtuse comments thrown my way or overt sexual harassment that I had to, you know, like make a decision in the moment. Do I say something? Do I not? Kristi (13:03.266) It's been great. Kristi (13:10.796) Mm-hmm. Kristi (13:14.126) me. Kristi (13:17.763) Yeah. Kristi (13:24.296) Mm-hmm. mo (13:29.564) And you went through all of this in your book, and I thought it was fascinating. And then as you also mentioned, actually peeling back the mystique and the aura of Amazon, it's such, everyone's like, oh, Amazon, what's it like there? And everyone has all these concepts in their minds about what the world really is like. And there's this sense I feel in the tech industry, it's almost like. Kristi (13:29.602) Right. Kristi (13:39.622) Uh huh. mo (13:52.434) If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, just like New York, right? It's like, if you can get through the toil of Amazon, like your meal ticket is punched, you are ready to rock anywhere else. And it's gonna be this golden cascade of job offers and great opportunities thereafter. So I think it's cool that you had the opportunity to go and show everybody what Amazon's really like behind the scenes. Kristi (13:55.464) Right, right. Kristi (14:02.807) Yeah. Kristi (14:14.59) Yeah, and I do think that it can be a golden ticket in some ways. I mean, you learn so much working there. You're thrown into so many crazy situations. And if you come out with your sense of self intact, you know, you are really valuable. Like you are someone who can solve problems, who can be dropped into any situation. But a lot of people come out just so burned out that they have to take time to recover before they're even mo (14:21.687) Yeah. mo (14:28.694) Hahahaha mo (14:32.523) Yeah. mo (14:39.562) Yes. Kristi (14:42.566) you know, worthy of interviewing anywhere else. That can be really tough. And I think for those of us who are there a really long time, it can be tough to adjust to a new environment because Amazon is so odd in a lot of ways. And so it's, and I guess that's true for anyone who's been in a company for a long time. You go to the new place and it's like, but why don't they do it the way that I'm used to? So, but it's, yeah, it's a great place to learn, but it- mo (14:45.055) Yeah, that's a really good point. mo (14:53.781) Yeah. mo (15:01.613) Yeah. mo (15:06.631) Right? Kristi (15:11.906) there's a price, a high price. mo (15:14.354) Yeah, and especially for people with ambition. I mean, things are not always within our control. And as you expressed throughout the book, you were on the hunt for a promotion, right? And you were given a lot of opportunity throughout the organization. You move from place to place. But tell me a little bit about what it was like for you trying to climb the corporate ladder at Amazon. Kristi (15:17.59) Mm-hmm. Right. Kristi (15:25.255) Mm-hmm. Kristi (15:36.446) Yeah, so I came in as a level seven at Amazon, which is basically the top level in middle management. So right before the executive level and getting to that next level is a really tough promotion to get. There aren't a lot of level eights in the company relatively speaking. So I knew it would be hard, but I think I was told about seven or eight times in my 12 years that I was right on the verge of promotion. mo (16:05.277) Good times. Kristi (16:05.678) And it just kept not happening. And my jobs got bigger and bigger, and I kept taking on more responsibility. And there was always a different reason why I wasn't quite there. And eventually I just thought, this is never going to happen. And what was really frustrating was just that I couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone as to why. mo (16:24.872) Hahaha Kristi (16:32.166) Um, it was, you know, sometimes it was me. Sometimes it was the role wasn't big enough. Sometimes it was just the timing was bad. I was actually told, yeah, this is in the book. At one point I went to a VP at a job where I was really excelling. And I, I had my little document where I'd written down, here's where I think I'm at that level and here's where I think I have skills I need to develop. And I said, you know, could you help me put together a plan? Like, what do you think? What do you think I need to demonstrate? mo (16:39.382) budget. mo (16:48.846) Hehehehe Kristi (17:00.458) And he said, just change the world and it'll be an easy sell. Just, just change the world. And he's just smiling at me. Like he's just given me a pearl of wisdom. And I was stunned because what that told me was that he wasn't taking me seriously. You know, he wasn't willing to say, we need to find something where you can show this skillset and you need to deliver these kinds of results. It was just change the world. And that. mo (17:03.246) Oh. No big deal. mo (17:10.916) Oh my gosh. mo (17:17.165) Absolutely. mo (17:27.571) Mm. Kristi (17:28.142) really knocked me off track for a while. It was years before I talked to anyone about promotion again because I thought, you know, I don't know how to just decide to change the world. mo (17:35.111) Oh my gosh, yeah. mo (17:42.09) No, and how taken advantage you must have felt at that moment. I mean, goodness, like they don't have a path for you. They don't really. They just expect you're going to hang out there and keep on toiling, you know? Kristi (17:47.258) I don't know. Kristi (17:50.848) Yeah. Kristi (17:54.546) Yeah, I think that is what they thought and because the, you know, the pay is really good. And it was a time when the stock was wildly inflated. And so we were all making more money than we would have working somewhere else. And that, you know, that's motivating. mo (18:04.312) Mm, right. mo (18:08.638) Right. Which, absolutely. And I know for a time it is not the case that people were paid super well because stock price did fluctuate, right? And Jeff Bezos very famously is a man of principled frugality, which I have a hard time dealing with the tension between that and his ostentatiously wealthy lifestyle, but, right? Like, ooh. Kristi (18:30.238) It's gotten pretty weird. Yeah. When I met Jeff, he was driving like just a normal car and wearing regular clothes. I mean, it's actually been like bizarre for a lot of us who are old timers to see these photos of him at Coachella, you know, with like a shirt button down to his navel. I'm like, who is this guy? He, it's really weird. Like it's, I'm glad he's having a nice time. Like, mo (18:40.332) Yeah. mo (18:52.726) think he knows. Kristi (18:59.15) But it's very strange. And he never acted that different. I remember seeing him around 2017. I hadn't seen him in person in a couple of years. And I went to a meeting with him and he walked in and I was like, oh my God, he is jacked. Like his muscles, just huge, huge muscles. And I was like, what the hell happened? he looked great, but it was just like, this is not the guy I knew. And he acted, he was the same bulk Jeff. He's kind of goofy. He asked great questions. He was smart. You know, I act, he has, the laugh is real, you know, and he laughs a lot, which I, I like, but I was like, things have really changed. Something is really strange here. You know, as far as promotion goes also, I was, I had a weird career path. mo (19:21.89) So funny. mo (19:30.262) That laugh, man, that laugh. mo (19:36.414) I like that too. Kristi (19:49.878) And that part of that is just me. Like I was a little bit of a square peg at Amazon. My skillset is around, you know, I'm a great manager, but you know, I'm not someone who fit easily into a single career path. So part of it is just that when you are someone like that, you're really valuable, but there aren't a lot of people like you. So there was not many people to compare me to. There was no one ahead of me. I was the highest ranking writer at Amazon at the end. So, mo (20:11.271) Yeah. mo (20:18.091) Wow. Kristi (20:19.138) there was no way to say, well, this person who's a level above her is she as strong as they are. So part of it was just me being who I am. But it was also just that Amazon, they just didn't care. mo (20:24.341) Yeah. mo (20:32.166) Isn't it also in part that women are supposed to, I mean, we want to be liked. It's such a huge core message that we're given throughout our lives in society. It's, you know, that's how you get through. It's you build that sense of community. You take care of others. And so I feel like that lends itself to women often becoming that utility player. So they don't become the superstar. They're puttin' all over the field because they'll just like pull themselves up by their bootstraps and just like say, yeah, sure, I'll take on this extra project that no one else is doing. Kristi (20:49.946) Absolutely. mo (20:59.946) And then I feel like that lets them get passed over and taken advantage of. Kristi (21:00.109) Yeah. Kristi (21:04.182) I think so when you don't have this one shining thing to point to. And I definitely got into that role at parts of my career because I wouldn't say no to anything. I could have, I might've had to justify it kind of hard, but I would just say yes. And so I'd end up with, you know, 15 projects on my plate at once. And it is hard then, you make a case for yourself as someone who could do a lot of work, but you're not famous for anything. mo (21:08.735) Right? mo (21:18.167) Yeah. mo (21:33.229) No, I feel like that doesn't help you get promoted a lot of times. Like your boss would be like, look at what we did in our department, but it was really you who did it. And you're just right. Kristi (21:34.014) And yeah, I don't think it does. Kristi (21:41.63) Exactly. Yeah. And so I got smarter about that as time went on and I got better at saying, here's what I did. And because one thing about Amazon is even when you're managing a team, you're still expected to be doing, you know, individual contributor work yourself. So yeah. mo (21:58.318) I respect that a lot of places that's not the case. And you're like, what does that guy, and it's usually a guy, what does he do? It's this real job, you know? Yeah. Kristi (22:04.582) Right, right. What is he doing all day? You know? Right, right, right. So I definitely got better at that. And I started to say no to things like, you may have noticed that diversity committees are always made up of, it's never white men on them. These committees, yeah, they're the ones with the power, you know. It's always women and people of color. And finally, I was just like, no, I'm not going to be on your diversity committee anymore. mo (22:18.706) Mm. Yes. Mm-mm. But we need them. We need them. Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. Good for you. Kristi (22:33.614) Go get a white, I would actually say, you need to go get a white man to do this extra work. Yeah. And I would tell younger women, think about the extra work that you take on. Like if it's a passion and you're dying to do it, then by all means do it. Like I don't think you have to be so cut and dried about your career that you don't take on fun things just for fun. But don't like diversity work is not gonna get you promoted. No one cares. mo (22:37.39) 100, respect that move, yes, 100%. That's how you get change. mo (22:45.701) Mm-hmm. mo (22:50.047) Yeah. mo (22:55.067) Right. mo (23:00.078) No. No one cares. 100. Yes. Kristi (23:02.162) And it's just going to, they just don't, if they care, they're, they're paying people for it. That's how you know if they care. And that, and the head is reporting into the C-suite. That's how you know if they care. Yeah. Right. And it's in the metrics. Right. If VPs are being measured and SVPs on their diversity metrics, then you know it matters otherwise. mo (23:12.906) Absolutely. 100% true. Follow the money. That's where you'll find the priorities, right? And the actual core values. Yes, yes. mo (23:29.122) then you know. Kristi (23:30.294) It's just kind of a wish, you know, a wish is not a plan. Exactly. mo (23:33.214) So true, nice to have, right? Versus need to have all of those things. So I wanna get into the subject of this very podcast, of course, which is age, right? And so, I mean, recently someone told me there is a 27 year old guy who's afraid that he's too old for Amazon as an engineer. I mean, which is just mind boggling to me. But you joined at age 38, which is like, right? 38, 38 ish? 36, 36. Kristi (23:43.672) Mm-hmm. Kristi (23:51.558) Oh my god. Yeah, yeah. Kristi (23:57.346) Yeah. 36. I think I was about to turn 37. Yeah. Mm-hmm. mo (24:02.034) OK, all right, well, 37 was when I personally was called a dino at work. So you were approaching dinosaur status at 36. I know, wild. What was it like joining Amazon at that age? And how did you think about age, if at all, when you were there? Kristi (24:09.114) amazing. Kristi (24:18.37) Yeah, well, I remember when I decided, I'd had a job in Michigan where I lived before for seven years. And I do remember thinking, it's probably too late for me to do something new. Like I'm 34, I'm 35. Which is just absolutely insane. But I truly believed it. And so when I thought, well, this is my last big... mo (24:32.762) Oh. Wow. How, what's wrong with our society that we think that? You're a baby. Kristi (24:45.166) This is my last big move when I got to Amazon, my last shot, moved to Seattle with my husband and our dog. And I would say that at the level I worked at, there were a lot of people roughly my age. There were people, like there weren't a lot of level sevens who were like 25 years old. I mean, it was just be, you just wouldn't be at that level. So the people who worked for me tended to be a little younger. mo (24:46.029) That's my last shot. mo (25:05.783) Okay. Kristi (25:12.45) but I had a lot of like 30 and 40 somethings around me. So I didn't feel like a freak. I just felt like, okay. mo (25:20.643) That's good. You felt belonging. You felt the D E I B, the belonging. Good. Kristi (25:25.994) Yes, exactly, exactly age-wise anyway. But as I got older and just as I've been at the company longer, I started to notice that the very most senior executives were like maybe 10 years older than I was. They were in their early 50s at most. And I do remember thinking, that seems weird. And is it because a lot of them would, they're making a ton of money, a lot of them would retire. mo (25:40.398) Mm. mo (25:47.498) Mm. mo (25:53.802) Yeah. Kristi (25:53.962) or quote, retire at like 52, because they would inevitably within two years, they'd be running a startup or, you know, doing tons of board, like none of them were capable of retiring. But I remember thinking like, is it tech or is that Amazon is kind of burning people out by that age? Or is it that people get to that age and they're like, what, what am I doing? This is crazy. I could be enjoying myself. mo (26:00.754) Yes, exactly. Yep. mo (26:20.102) Yeah, I've got so much money, why don't I? Yeah, exactly. Kristi (26:23.37) Right, right, exactly. But because what you know, I know there's this myth that people who make that kind of money aren't really working. But I could tell you, like at Amazon, those people were working insanely hard, like so hard that I would think, you know, you're worth tens of millions of dollars. Why are you answering emails on Sunday night? Like, what are you doing? Yeah, why don't you go more vacations? Like you have so much money. Right. I was like, give me that money and I will show you how it's done. mo (26:34.944) Yeah. mo (26:39.614) You're doing it wrong, man. What are you? Yeah. Like, get out of here. Let me show you how it's done, okay? Like, exactly. Here's the good life for real. Yeah. Kristi (26:52.93) But I, yeah, and I think they were just driven by the same things we all were. I mean, these were people who'd mostly come up through the ranks at Amazon, and they were still driven to prove that they were capable and competent. So even though they were vastly wealthy, I think they still felt scared. That's my theory. So yeah, and then by the end, I think I definitely saw a lot of young people around me. I mean, I'd gotten to the age where I could be like these kids. mo (27:05.035) Yeah. mo (27:10.576) Mmm. Kristi (27:22.046) I was 48 when I left and to observe some generation gaps and to be like, what is going on with Gen Z? Like I actually had that conversation with someone and then we both were like, oh, this is so terrible. We've gotten to the point that we're complaining about young people. Kids these days, they don't, why are they so driven by like consensus and that kind of thing? So it, you know. mo (27:23.585) Yeah. Hahaha. mo (27:33.883) You're like, wait a minute, what are we doing? Kids these days, you know? mo (27:43.269) Hehehe Hehehehe Kristi (27:49.494) I never felt ageism in a really serious way. I think gender was more of a limiter for me, but you would look around, especially at entry level, and it was like, they just outnumber us vastly. Like the sea of 25-year-olds. You know? mo (27:54.978) Good. mo (28:02.13) Yeah. mo (28:07.046) Now, because you were in an individual contributor role throughout your time, it sounds like at Amazon, did that ever, did you manage people? Okay. Kristi (28:10.606) Mm-hmm. Why actually, I, why actually, I, yeah, I managed orgs till probably my last four years there and then I moved into these principal roles, dry C roles, yeah. mo (28:22.153) Okay. Got it, got it. Oh yeah, the role that was the new title granted to you, right, what was it? Like leadership development, something, yeah. Principle, yeah, it sounds very highfalutin, you know, it's a good one. It's funny how that works. Right, right. Kristi (28:28.902) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Principle or something, yeah. Kristi (28:38.83) Yeah, it didn't feel that way. I liked it, but it didn't feel that way. Yeah. mo (28:45.614) That's amazing. Okay, so you had the management experience. So I have found that a lot of people will say that their views on age differ based on whether they are a manager or an individual contributor because there's sort of a sense that, actually my guest from recently, he was told, hey, I can't pitch you as a 58 year old dude to recruiters or to companies as a recruiter because they see you as an IC and they think why isn't this guy a CTO by now, right? And so, Kristi (28:49.731) Mm-hmm. Kristi (29:14.594) Oh. mo (29:14.882) There's that sort of individual contributor clock that's kind of ticking on age. So yeah. Kristi (29:19.322) I can imagine that. Yeah. I think it kind of depends on the sort of IC you are to like Amazon has this idea of the principal. It starts with like principal engineer. And that is someone who is really acknowledged to be like the best at what they do. They don't manage people, but they mentor heavily. They do code reviews. I mean, they make a lot of money. Yeah. And I think other companies have it too. So that's I never heard of this. And so that's where the idea of a. mo (29:28.077) Hmm. mo (29:36.145) Okay. mo (29:39.63) That's cool. That's actually cute. mo (29:45.975) Yeah. Kristi (29:48.89) principle comes that like you are highly influential. You just don't have direct reports. And it's pretty sweet. I mean, I was a principal in my last two roles and I was like, this is great. I don't have to write performance reviews. I don't have to do like, I mean, I love, yeah, yeah. Like I loved a lot of things about managing, but it's really taxing, especially with your individual workload at Amazon. And so I felt like people, they saw that title and they knew that I was. mo (29:53.026) That's great. mo (29:58.676) Okay. mo (30:02.11) Yeah, yeah, it's the best of both worlds. Kristi (30:17.99) still a person to be reckoned with. And also I was known. I had been a manager for so long, for probably almost eight or nine years at Amazon, that people knew who I was. But I do think if someone comes in at that age, I can see people being like, yeah, why haven't they done more? Why aren't they managing? The other thing is not everyone is great at managing. I think some of mo (30:20.151) Yeah. mo (30:40.963) Yeah. No. Kristi (30:47.706) quirky guys, you know, maybe kind of spectrumy and they wouldn't have been suited to manage teams. No, and it's, and it's wise then to say, well, let's give them a role where they can really shine. mo (30:51.006) Yeah. mo (30:54.434) It's not for everyone. mo (31:00.774) Yeah, I think that's a really great thing that Amazon does. And it sounds like some other companies I've heard of do the same thing. I hadn't realized that Amazon was one of them. That makes a ton of sense and is actually a really, really good move. And I hope that more and more companies will actually take that sort of a move themselves. Kristi (31:04.878) Mm-hmm. Kristi (31:08.729) Yeah. Kristi (31:17.222) And these were mostly not very young guys either. And they were mostly guys. I'm using guys like deliberately, yeah. But they were mostly in there because I think it takes time to develop that kind of expertise. They were probably mostly in their 40s to 50s, yeah. mo (31:20.062) Yeah. Deliberately. Yeah. mo (31:29.451) 100%. mo (31:32.65) Yeah, that's a great way of acknowledging expertise and not forcing people into the management track, which is just not for everyone. So applause to Amazon for that move for sure. I wanna get into more on the generational front. And I know that there was this point in the book that really stood out to me because I could just see it playing out. And I've seen similar things and I've worried about similar things in the past and I know I will in the future if I go back to corporate. But. Kristi (31:37.674) Exactly. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. Kristi (31:47.77) Hmm. Kristi (31:52.77) Hmm. Kristi (31:58.923) Yeah. mo (32:00.134) You spoke of this time when you were in New York City and you were throwing an event for some of the Amazon authors that you were working with. Can you set the stage a little bit for the audience and tell them what happened there and sort of the weird situation that you were put in that moment? Kristi (32:06.03) Mm-hmm. Kristi (32:14.886) Yeah. So I was working for Amazon Publishing, which is a traditional publishing house within Amazon. It's not self-publishing. And we had thrown this huge event around a big book industry convention where we brought in all our authors and rented out basically a whole hotel for them and threw a huge party. And we had these employees. It was not, we were like, this is weird. It was very, it was... mo (32:36.427) Sounds not very frugal actually. Like why is Jeff okaying this? Kristi (32:43.094) It was very on Amazon and all of us old timers were kind of like, this is great, but like I love this hotel, but this is really strange. And we, yeah, it was, we kind of did that on purpose because we knew that the industry would be like, they're serious. If they're spending this kind of money, they mean it. They, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we were, we had these people, these employees called author relation managers. mo (32:47.882) Hahaha mo (32:56.93) Wow, yeah. Money talks. Kristi (33:09.182) If you are an author with the traditional publishing house, it can be really hard to get anyone to answer your questions, explain how to read your royalty statement. I mean, basically just like good luck, try getting anyone on the phone. So we were like, well, something we can do is these, it's almost like a concierge. They have someone who will take their call. And so they were mostly young women, like 30-ish, and they were really, you know, they were very social people because that's a great part of the job. mo (33:20.684) Hahaha mo (33:38.919) Mm-hmm. Kristi (33:38.946) So there's an open tab for everyone. They're in the hotel, the lobby bar. And there was this small group of authors, these three guys who were three of our biggest names and with a couple of others and they were lit. I mean, it's like three in the afternoon. They've been drinking for hours. And we call them arms, our author relation managers. The arms are over there with them and they're also getting pretty lit. mo (33:43.026) Oh boy. Whew. mo (33:56.522) Oh my gosh. It's fabulous. Kristi (34:06.086) And one of them is sitting on someone's lap. And I'm standing across the room with two other women in leadership who were my age, Gen X. And we're just going like, oh shit. Like, what do we, this is not good. Like this is gonna go, the drinking was fine, you know? Right, right, I was like, this seems like it could just go very badly. And the men were really, one in particular was just really boisterous, really already telling kind of. mo (34:15.682) Mm-hmm. Like, what do we do? Like, legal? Like, yeah. Kristi (34:34.37) off-colored jokes, and I just thought, I just am not liking this. And so we were like, okay, we have to say something. But we all, because we were Gen X, what I found funny at the time was we all reassured each other that it's not that it would bother us. We were just worried because they're young. Right, we're cool girls, yeah, exactly. Because we all had. mo (34:35.787) Uh oh. Mm-mm. mo (34:42.989) Mm-hmm. mo (34:51.074) Exactly. We're cool. We're fine. We can handle it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Kristi (35:00.046) handle that kind of thing. And so it was just like, well, we don't know if the, and they were junior, you know, so we were like, we don't know if they feel safe complaining. And so we were looking out for them, but it was just kind of funny. We didn't feel safe just being like, no, this is unacceptable. It was like, well, we'd be fine with it. But these, these young girls, like, they, they don't know. Exactly. Yeah. mo (35:05.204) Mm-hmm. mo (35:15.09) Yeah, right. Because then you're a shrill nag, right? You're no fun. Like, yeah. You can't hang, et cetera. Yeah, it's an impossible, yeah. Not one of the boys, right? Yeah. Kristi (35:24.438) Yeah, you can't hang. You're not one of the guys. Yeah, yeah. And we never really did, we went to our manager who was also a woman, but who was much more in that I could be one of the guys framework. And she said, she's like, I don't know. It doesn't really bother me. And that was sort of, and then we tried again, and we got the, like later that day, we got the same response. At that point, we could have gone over her head mo (35:39.342) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristi (35:53.962) RVP, that's delicate, you know, and he was a guy, I mean, he would not have thought it was acceptable, but it's just it was awkward. And so we basically ended up just trying to chaperone. And we did get to a point where one of these guys said something incredibly offensive and sexual, you know, yeah. I mean, I couldn't I didn't witness it directly, but I but the women who were there were just absolutely gobsmacked. mo (35:55.158) Yeah, but then... mo (36:06.434) Oh my gosh, that's horrible. Yeah, I read it in your book and I was like, are you kidding? Oh my gosh. Kristi (36:21.066) And, you know, he got away with it because nobody would do anything. It was more important to Amazon that he have a good time than that our employees have. Like, I mean, that was a work environment and that was not... They could have, someone could have sued us. You know, yeah. mo (36:24.758) they always do. mo (36:34.357) Yeah. 100%. It's just a bad decision. Alcohol and work sometimes don't really mix, which leads me into the fact that you decided halfway through your time at Amazon to embark on a journey towards sobriety. And I want to hear a little bit about that. Kristi (36:45.322) Right. It's really... Kristi (36:56.407) Yeah. Yeah, I had, you know, I am one of those people, like I think I probably was always destined to become an alcoholic. I think it's probably genetic, you know, from the first time I drank when I was 16 or 17, I probably liked it just a little bit too much. But I was what I think a lot of people would call a gray area drinker. I mean, I was, I never had a DUI, you know, I was achieving at work, my relationships were fine. mo (37:12.849) Mm, I got it. Kristi (37:24.866) But it was just, especially after I came to Amazon, it was just my one tool for de-stressing. And what happens is it makes your life smaller and smaller. You know, addiction, it wasn't chaos for me. It was just the slow, like your aperture just gets smaller and smaller. And so I would think every night, well, I'm not gonna drink too much tonight, and then I would do it. So like for years, every single day, I broke a huge promise to myself. So... mo (37:31.191) Yeah. mo (37:42.752) Wow. mo (37:48.942) Slippery slope. Kristi (37:51.85) Eventually, and this is when I was working in the publishing arm, I decided to stop. And that was also because publishing is a very boozy business. And Amazon is a very boozy company. And so the two together, I mean, no, it's really not right. People kind of make their own fun. And often that means they'll have a little fridge they bought themselves with beer under their desk. And, you know, at six o'clock. mo (38:01.588) Yes. mo (38:05.794) But not a party company, right? Like, it doesn't strike me as a party heavy company. Frugality and such. Yeah. Kristi (38:21.71) they and a few colleagues have a few beers and then they get back to work. I mean, it's like, that's the kind of cultures. Yeah, well, it's not free beer either, that they bought themselves. Yeah. Oh no, no. Or there'd be, you know, because people, I had a VP, someone I really, really liked. She loved good scotch and she could afford the best scotch. And so she had a selection of like, mo (38:25.794) Oh my gosh, that's such a ploy. Here, we'll give you free beer, but the catch is, oh, it's, oh, that, oh, that, ah, Amazon was not gonna sponsor, got it, yeah, okay. Ha, ha, ha. mo (38:44.694) Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha! Kristi (38:49.278) Scotches I'd never heard of, like amazing single-bottled Scotches, you know, on her desk. And now and then, you know, I'd go in there with her around five and we'd just, we'd have a drink. And so it was, but it was always like, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I got to a point where I just, I don't know what made me decide to quit, but I was like, you just, you have to, you're gonna die young if you don't. And so I ended up doing really, at first I thought I'm not gonna be able to stay here sober. mo (38:58.702) It's like 60s Mad Men. mo (39:09.322) Yeah. Oh man. mo (39:18.008) Mm. Kristi (39:18.05) because the stress is so intense and everybody's drinking. mo (39:20.398) Gosh, that sucks. And it is hard when everyone's drinking. I mean, my dance with sobriety was January, right? Like I did dry January. And even in that small window, I was like, wow, this is, it is difficult. So, I mean, hats off to you for recognizing that it was limiting your life. And I love the analogy you made of the aperture. It's... Kristi (39:30.115) Oh right, right. Yeah, yeah. Kristi (39:40.37) Mm-hmm. A lot of work events, especially when I was in publishing, are, you know, they're around happy hours and things like that. So I remember I'd been sober about 60 days or something. And I had to go to this huge party at the Dale Chihuly Museum here in Seattle. It's this gorgeous room, big dinner party. People are just absolutely off their minds lit. There was like a two and a half hour cocktail hour before dinner. And... mo (39:57.782) Mmm, beautiful. mo (40:08.154) Like what could go wrong? Oh my gosh Kristi (40:10.494) There were three signature cocktails and wine and beer and no, like these days there'd also be a signature non-alcoholic cocktail. That's just pretty normal now, you know? But I was just drinking water and I remember I just would tell myself, you can go in the bathroom and decompress whenever you need to. There was like this very fancy women's room and I'd go in and I'd work on a crossword puzzle for a few minutes or something. mo (40:18.682) Mocktail. Yes, it's agreed. It's great. mo (40:31.534) That's. mo (40:35.443) So smart. Kristi (40:37.874) It was basically just get through this however you need to, because you're gonna have to live in a world where people drink. Like this is, unless you're gonna hide in your house forever. And so we finally sat down to dinner and I happened to be next to this guy who was like a military thriller author. Someone I probably had nothing in common with. I'm pretty sure he was a Republican, you know, just much older than me, blah, blah. And everyone at the table is lit. And at some point he... mo (40:41.022) Yeah. Yeah. mo (40:58.692) Hahaha Kristi (41:06.062) He just said something casual about how, oh, we're the two who aren't drunk. And somehow I just spontaneously said to him, it's my 59th day without a drink, which is a pretty vulnerable thing to say to someone. And he said, that's wonderful. I stopped 21 years ago and I've never regretted it. You do not have to drink to have a good time. And this man was so kind and encouraging. I've thought of him ever since as mo (41:18.163) Yeah, it sure is. mo (41:29.272) Oh. mo (41:33.333) Mm. Kristi (41:33.398) I don't know if I believe in the supernatural, but it's like he was an angel sent there to sit next to me specifically in this room of hundreds of people. And it really was a reminder that not everyone drinks. And I started to notice after that at company events, there's a lot of people who just don't drink. Like we had a lot of employees from India and a lot of them basically just grew up not drinking and kept not drinking. mo (41:40.043) Yeah. Kristi (41:59.394) There were people from Asia who get this flushing syndrome. There's something that can happen to Asian people where it's very uncomfortable. And they were like, yeah, I'd like to be able to drink, but I just can't do it. And then there were, yeah, it's not worth it. And then there were people who just don't, there are people who are like, I don't like the taste. And I was like, I never worried about the taste. I just wanted to be drunk. And so I started to find my place and then eventually you just stop being self-conscious about it. And the nicest thing was in my last org, mo (42:02.866) Right? Yes. mo (42:09.118) It's not worth it. Yeah. mo (42:16.554) Yeah. Just the feeling. Yeah. mo (42:24.758) thinking about it. What? Kristi (42:29.038) whenever they would have a company, an org celebration, they would just quietly also have a table of non-alcoholic champagne to go with the alcoholic champagne. And I was sort of getting a little bit famous as a sober writer by then. So I was made to understand that this had something to do with me making them aware of this. But it was such a nice thing to do. Yeah, yeah. mo (42:39.575) That's cool. mo (42:50.774) Well, that is a great legacy. That's a great legacy to leave for people. Kristi (42:55.71) It really was nice and they didn't make a big deal out of it. It just, it just happened to be there. And I thought that was that, that meant a lot to me. I thought it was really sweet. And people drank that stuff too. You know, it wasn't just me. Yeah. mo (42:58.923) Yeah. mo (43:05.138) Yeah, I'm sure it's delicious. I'm sure it's delicious. And the truth is, I feel like one thing that's great about aging is that you move forward in the world with so much more confidence. You don't think, oh, what will people think of me? Oh, they're going to see that I'm not drinking, and what will they say? That sort of goes out the window more and more as you get older. And I found it to be really liberating. And I imagine the same was true in your sobriety journey. Kristi (43:16.762) Absolutely. Kristi (43:24.812) Oh yeah. Kristi (43:30.134) Absolutely. I mean, part of getting sober is that you kind of have to stop worrying about what people are thinking about you all the time because you'll drive yourself crazy. And if you drive yourself crazy, you could end up relapsing. And so I just didn't care. And I started to feel so good. And as I've gotten older, I do feel like sobriety is the fountain of youth in some ways. There are health problems a lot of people my age have that I'm just not dealing with. Dealing with paramedicine has been easier. mo (43:40.942) It's true. mo (43:50.871) Mm, I believe it. Kristi (43:57.302) because alcohol can exacerbate that. I just really feel like it's helped me to feel alive and vibrant. And also I got sober at age 43. So again, at an age when I thought, well, it might be too late to change anything. So I know now, like. mo (43:59.819) Mm. mo (44:14.435) hahahaha Kristi (44:18.846) it's never too late. Like I quit drinking at 43 and then like, I ran my first half marathon like a year later. I mean, it's never too late to do new things. And so whenever I find myself thinking, well, it might be too late about something, I'm just like, why do you, don't you have ample evidence at this point that, my first book came out when I was 48, that like, it's not too late. Like it might be too late to become a neurologist or something. mo (44:44.197) Hahaha! Kristi (44:46.562) But a lot of, you know, you don't just, you don't stop changing just because you get older. You know, yeah, for better or worse. Sometimes I wish I would. mo (44:50.724) No, you really don't. That's that's a really beautiful story. Yeah, exactly. That's fantastic. No, I love that. That's a really, really great point of emphasis and I think one that this whole audience will really deeply appreciate. So thank you for sharing that. They definitely will. And. Kristi (44:59.851) Mm. Kristi (45:06.506) Yeah, I hope so. I know women in their seventies who are just quitting drinking. I mean, it's like, you know, there's never a time when it's too late to say, whether it's drinking or something else, that I wanna change something, you know? Yeah. mo (45:13.416) Wow. mo (45:21.362) Yeah, yeah, or do something huge, like write a freaking amazing book at 48. That's so, so cool. And I know I personally am putting that one in my back pocket and hoping that I can grow up to be like you. So thank you for that inspiration. Kristi (45:25.631) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kristi (45:34.769) You're welcome. mo (45:37.138) I wanted to ask you, because obviously you've had to do a lot of shape shifting in your roles at Amazon and you've had to, you're a woman at work, you then became a sober woman at work. And we see these circumstances arise all the time in our corporate lives where men will do something that's untoward or there will be someone making light of something that they shouldn't. And these situations just come up and we're always in that painful place that you just described about what do we do? Do we pretend we're cool with it? What do we say? Kristi (45:42.115) Hmm. Kristi (46:06.754) Hmm. mo (46:06.89) And there was one part of your book that you talked about this luxury retreat at the sleeping lady where everyone was so upset about, oh my gosh, what will people think that we're taking seaplanes up there, which I was dying over by the way. And by the way, this is another point I wanna underscore. Your book is hysterical. So everybody listening to this, you really need to pick it up because you will laugh a lot. But you led us into this luxury retreat at the sleeping lady, which by the way, I wanna go to now, especially now that I hear it was luxurious. Sounds cool. Kristi (46:11.406) Mm-hmm. Kristi (46:17.898) Yeah, I know. Kristi (46:23.31) Thank you. Kristi (46:31.806) It's great, you know, it's so nice. And it's just like an hour and 10 minutes from Seattle and you could just go. You don't have to be with a retreat. And it's like, it's not fancy. It's just really comfortable. You would love it. Yeah, you should go. Yeah. mo (46:36.886) Yeah, it's close. mo (46:44.63) Sounds fabulous. So I'm gonna actually make sure that they sponsor this episode now. But we should all go to the sleeping lady. But so you had this team retreat and you were there with a host of different people and something really interesting unfolded and the way you handled it was exceptional in that, well, why don't you just tell the story because I'm not gonna recount it the way you could. Kristi (46:50.29) Yes. Yeah. Kristi (46:56.31) Mm-hmm. Kristi (47:03.578) Thank you. Yeah, so I was working in leadership development and I had made this role for myself or I was on the faculty of, we trained executives to be better at their jobs basically. And so I was training people at the level I had never been able to get to. So we had taken a group, the irony exactly. So we'd taken a bunch of them out to Sleeping Lady because we'd like to get them away, so they can't multitask. And... mo (47:21.274) Oh the irony. mo (47:29.356) Yeah. Kristi (47:31.614) I was with, and I happen to be in the same small cohort as my boss, as my manager. And so we had this group of like seven guys and we would meet to debrief on each day's activities in this little cute little cabin. And this one guy, it was a really crowded table for the eight of us. And this one guy kept saying things like, hey now, if you're sitting too close to me, I might have to complain about sexual harassment to other guys. Like just the dumbest, like, ugh. mo (48:00.562) so annoying. Kristi (48:01.454) irritating humor. And the first time I just kind of ignored it, you know, and the second time I was just like, oh, and I started to become aware that I was the only woman in the room. And people had to have been thinking, is Christie annoyed by this? Or is Christie upset by this? Like, there's no way that these are like intelligent people that they're not aware that there's just one girl here. And so exactly. mo (48:17.738) Yep. mo (48:24.336) And then you speak for all women by your response, right? It's like, oh gosh. Kristi (48:27.55) Exactly, that I speak for all women. And my boss, who was great, but he didn't seem to notice that anything was going on. None of the men said anything. And I just kept thinking about all the times I've had real trouble from sexual harassment in my career, and women I knew who'd had real trouble. And I thought, I need to say something. And I thought, no, I don't wanna say anything. I really didn't wanna say anything. And... mo (48:50.486) Yeah, so uncomfortable. Yeah. Kristi (48:53.566) yeah, I didn't want to be that person. Nobody wants to be that woman. So that night I went for a run and I just thought, okay, you're going to do this. You're going to say something and I know you don't want to, but we're going to do it. And so the next day, he did it again, first of all. And then we had this time they were giving feedback to each other. So we had this thing where you went around the room and you said to someone, you know, it's that situation behavior impact thing. Like when you did this, it impacted me this way. And it got to me. mo (49:18.313) Yeah Kristi (49:22.998) And I just went rogue. And so this wasn't about what they'd done during the study. I said, you know, I've noticed that you've made these jokes about sexual harassment and so situation, your behavior. And the impact on me is that I've actually had to deal with it and it's really, really hard. And the problem also is that it tends to drive women out of the workplace. And when we don't have women in the workplace, it's shown that, you know, mo (49:35.391) Mm-hmm. Kristi (49:52.502) diverse teams make better decisions. And also if you have women who work for you, and I'd already checked and realized he had no women who worked for him. He had like 20 direct reports who were all men. But I said, you know, they would need to feel safe with you. So for you to be an effective leader, they'd need to feel like you didn't think this was funny. And that was my key piece because I knew if I came in and just said, I was upset that you joked about sexual harassment, he could write me off. mo (49:56.418) Money. mo (50:01.595) Damn it! mo (50:20.318) No, 100%. Yeah. Be cooler, Christie. Be cooler. Kristi (50:21.578) It's just, oh, she's so sensitive. But if I said, yeah, be cooler, be cooler. But if I said, this is a leadership retreat and here's some feedback about your leadership potential, then I could do it. So I said that, and then I just stopped. And you were supposed to always say, thank you for the feedback and not respond. And he said that, and I was like, you're welcome. And I was just trying not to shake under the table. And mo (50:35.31) Mm. mo (50:45.898) My gosh. Kristi (50:47.386) I sat there for another hour and at the end my boss said, hey, can you, can you, and I'd seen him kind of smile at me when I did it, like I could tell I had done something that he liked and he said, he loved to tape things. He was always taping sessions, but he hadn't taped this because it was private. And he was like, I wish I had that on tape because that was one of the most beautiful examples of leadership I have ever seen. mo (50:57.7) Hahaha mo (51:05.186) Oh, okay. mo (51:13.496) Aww. Kristi (51:14.602) And I was just so, you know, then I was like, don't cry, don't cry. I was so moved by it. Right. Exactly. And, and of course, this is like, he was very squishy. Like this is leadership development. It's all about emotional intelligence and all that. But, um, I, it really felt good. And I then of course had to second guess myself, like, have I ruined my relationship with this person? Blah, blah, blah. It didn't really matter. I was never going to. mo (51:19.186) Can't be seen crying. mo (51:26.533) Yeah. That's so cool. mo (51:39.71) Oh, you did the... Yeah. Yeah! Kristi (51:42.846) see him again after that. But, and a couple of the other guys were like, hey, you know, nice job. I really liked that you did that. And I said, thank you. Also thinking like, I wish one of you had done it. I wish it hadn't had to be me. mo (51:52.918) had done it. Yeah, I think that's the next step. If it hadn't had to be you, then we know we're really making progress. But I agree with your boss's assessment or your colleague, cohort leader, whatever he was, his assessment of how you approached it because you did it in the perfectly Amazonian way too, which was like such a critical component of it, right? Because as you pointed out. Kristi (52:01.055) Exactly, exactly. Kristi (52:06.217) Mm-hmm. Kristi (52:13.503) Exactly. Mm-hmm. mo (52:18.326) He could have thrown it out and just thought you were, you know, some shrill nag otherwise, right? So, yeah. Kristi (52:22.078) Yeah, exactly. But it's kind of like, and I think people think it's okay to joke about women in a way that they know it's, like he would never have made, you know, an overtly racist joke in that group, even though it was all white men. He just wouldn't have, you just know it's not okay. I don't think he would have made a homophobic joke, but somehow it's like women are still funny or something. So, so I really wanted to, yeah, and age, yeah. mo (52:34.61) Right. Yes. mo (52:42.082) No. mo (52:45.854) Yep, yep, women and age. Those two are socially acceptable, yeah. Kristi (52:51.37) Yeah, yeah. So I just thought you need to put this in terms that he can't just write you off as shrill or too sensitive or, you know, and yeah. I don't know if it ever, if it changed him or not, but he did speak to me again. He came up to me a couple of days later and was like, these scones are amazing at breakfast. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna take that as we're still friends. I didn't say anything. I just said, yes, they are. Yeah. I was like, they are. mo (52:59.768) Brilliant. mo (53:06.358) Well... mo (53:13.77) That sure are. Yeah, sure are buddy, pal. Kristi (53:20.258) So I feel good about that. mo (53:22.482) I mean, that's awesome, but it really underscores the extent to which we have to shape shift all the time and be constantly vigilant as to our own appearance, how we're coming across, our degree of likability, are we being too much, right? Too much, too opinionated, or not too soft. It's very, very hard to contort yourself into the right corporate shape. And you had this sort of interlude in the book that I loved, and to me, it was Kristi (53:29.486) Mm-hmm. Kristi (53:35.554) Yeah. Kristi (53:46.198) Oh yeah. mo (53:51.37) It resembled the America Ferrera speech in Barbie, but like corporate Barbie edition. It was brilliant. And I just, can you share a little bit about what led you to write that specific part of the book? Because I loved it. Kristi (53:57.196) Right. Kristi (54:05.178) Yeah, I was, it's funny, it was during the pandemic and I was at a point in the book where I was just feeling stuck and I went out to Whidbey Island where there was a little more life going on and I sat outside at this cafe like it was amazing. I was like I'm eating food in a restaurant, which was amazing because this was like during lockdown and it was incredible. It was incredible and I started thinking about all the books I'd read for career women and mo (54:22.094) Oh Did feel big, yeah. Kristi (54:34.026) training that some women at Amazon had gone to in their department and I'd heard about this and it was things like don't ever look at the you only look at the business triangle on a man's face which is his eyes and nose don't look at the social triangle which is his mouth and it was bizarre. mo (54:49.321) What? mo (54:53.102) Okay, I haven't heard this. What the hell? Kristi (54:56.238) And things like, you know, lean forward, but not too far. You want to look confident, but not arrogant. You want to lean forward to show that you're engaged, but then they might see your boobs. So also make sure you're not too far forward. I just started thinking about all the advice I'd heard and how much of it contradicts each other. And then I thought, you know, no one's telling men like, don't tilt your head too much. Don't end conversations on upswing. You know, when people talk about vocal fry and upswing, I am convinced. mo (55:06.302) I was gonna say better not being, yeah. mo (55:14.485) Mm. mo (55:17.71) Hahahaha mo (55:23.452) Oh God, it's always about women. Kristi (55:25.942) I'm convinced they do it because it is a way that women tend to talk. Now someone might find it annoying, but I don't think it would be such a big deal if men also talk that way. So I, I started just writing these things down and it got me unstuck because I wasn't trying to write in traditional narrative anymore. It was just this litany of advice and it was really fun. mo (55:30.254) 100%. mo (55:36.492) Yeah. mo (55:44.543) Yeah, yeah. Kristi (55:48.866) really fun to write and also just kind of cathartic. Cause I was like, no wonder, no wonder you felt crazy. Like these things, you can't do all these things at once. You know, embrace your femininity, but never show your legs, arms, boobs, you know, like what? And so like, like literally, is there a way that for me to sit or stand that is appropriate? Just someone tell me please. And so then I went back and I ended up doing two more versions of the interlude that appear later in the book. mo (55:51.91) Yes! mo (56:00.558) Thanks for watching! mo (56:04.206) supposed to do? Oh my god. mo (56:10.975) 100%. Kristi (56:19.098) And in the second one, I can't remember what I wrote in the second one. It was basically just a list of things I had, I started to cross things out. We literally cross it out. Yeah. And I'm talking, right. mo (56:29.162) Yes, I remember how you cross things out, yes. Because you'd grown, you'd learned over time and you were like, okay, well, right, not this advice anymore, yeah. Kristi (56:38.01) Yeah, and I'm just speaking more realistically about what I would advise people to do. You know, like don't say yes to assignments that aren't going to get you anywhere. And then by the third one, it's just very blunt. And I'm basically just telling women, look, wear what you want to wear, wear clothes to work. You know, that's Amazon's dress code, by the way. It's wear clothes, which I love. Like they're like, wear clothes, you know, they don't even say shoes, just wear clothes. I've seen people dress. mo (56:50.615) Yeah mo (56:54.162) Yeah. mo (57:00.174) Awesome. Wow. Kristi (57:06.37) very strangely there. Pajamas, barefoot, you know, whatever. I think it's great. I love it. Right. Right, exactly. Maybe they were like, we might as well just say, wear clothes cause we're not gonna get them to dress up anyway. Exactly. Yeah. And it was basically just like, wear what you want, do what you want because you can't, you're not gonna outrun your gender. mo (57:07.85) That's amazing. And then you add the Seattle angle where, I mean, people in Seattle, wow. Just wow. Exactly. Seattle formal is like you're wearing clothes, yeah. And maybe shoes. Kristi (57:35.938) I mean, this was the, what I had come to is it will never, they will always see you as a woman first and a worker, an employee, a friend second, you're not going to outrun it. So you might as well, and there's no correct way for you to be a woman. You're not ever going to get it right in the world's eyes. So you might as well do what you want. And so that's kind of how it ended. Like my ultimate advice is you're kind of screwed. So live how you want to live. Knowing that you will not. mo (57:35.986) Yeah. The third one. mo (57:41.902) Mm-hmm. mo (57:51.126) No. mo (58:03.778) I love that. Kristi (58:05.61) ever get it right. You'll never be the right amount female in the workplace. Sadly, I mean, so it's a freedom in a way. And then, yeah, I sat in the theater watching Barbie and the book wasn't out yet. I was like, this, oh my God, it sounds like, it sounds like, this is crazy. It was kind of amazing. mo (58:21.791) Like, holy shit. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I obviously read the book around the same time that Barbie, I guess Barbie came out anyway, but I just, I was like, damn, that is just spot on and so necessary for us to read and I love that the conclusion to which you came was essentially like we're screwed, like just be yourself and hope for the best. Yeah. Kristi (58:31.217) Mm-hmm. Kristi (58:37.151) It was wild. Kristi (58:44.174) Just do what you want. Yeah, because you're not gonna win the game. Like you may, you can get some distance contorting yourself, but you're still having to contort yourself. And so I never, I mean, I played the game plenty. I don't begrudge any woman being like, I'm gonna play the game so I can get ahead, but you're always gonna have to play it. It's just like, you have to just make your peace with that. You're never gonna be able to really be your authentic self and have men. mo (58:51.49) Yeah. mo (58:56.161) Yep. Yeah. No. mo (59:08.812) Yep. No, no, that's ridiculous. No. And men can't even be their authentic selves at work either. Like, the whole system does not allow that. It just sucks. And the game is a part of being in corporate. It is just how it goes. And some people play it really exceptionally well, and they make it to the top. Some people don't play it well at all, and they don't. And then some people play it well and still don't make it. Kristi (59:13.57) think that's all right. They're just not gonna like it. No, no. Right. Kristi (59:25.731) Yeah. Kristi (59:31.801) Right. mo (59:35.354) And so that's, I would say, an interesting component of this is that you had all this ambition while you were at Amazon. You were doing exceptional work. You had led teams. You were getting these plum assignments. They seemed plum from the outside, right? Like they were these new jobs that were first of its kind. You were coaching the heads of the company on how to be better leaders themselves. And yet you yourself were held at this L7, right? And these... Kristi (59:41.636) Hmm. Kristi (59:48.602) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristi (59:53.794) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Kristi (01:00:02.584) Yeah. mo (01:00:03.647) L's. How many L's are there? How many levels? Kristi (01:00:06.722) There's like 12, but it's kind of funny. There's one that's missing. You know how hotels never have it? He would be, I think there's maybe a 13. You know how hotels often don't have a floor 13? It's missing one. I think they left one blank because they were like, someday we might want to fill it in. But Amazon's really flat. I mean, I think Microsoft has like 60 levels or something. I've heard people be like, well, I went from 42 to 43 and I'm just like, whoa. mo (01:00:09.234) Okay. Like what's Jeff? Oh, at 13? mo (01:00:18.036) Yes, yes. Okay. mo (01:00:23.698) Interesting. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow. mo (01:00:32.93) That is wild. Kristi (01:00:34.026) It's a very flat company. So yeah, I mean, I was just stuck there. And part of it is also, I was obsessively focused on these external markers of achievement. I mean, I was continually getting bigger jobs, great jobs. I was highly respected. You know, they were paying me well, but I needed that. I was the little girl who always got the A plus. And if I got an A minus, I was upset with myself, you know? So I was like, yeah, yeah. mo (01:00:45.504) Mm, yeah. mo (01:00:56.806) Exactly. You were bummed. Well, we were millennial Gen X, right? And we were taught, just work hard, keep climbing the ladder. That was how we were going to make our way in the world. Kristi (01:01:07.05) Yeah, that's and you'll get what you deserve. I mean, I grew up being told women can do anything. They just have to be as good as men. And I thought, well, I can be as good as a man. And then I thought, oh, I have to be better than the men. But it was a lie. Like telling women they could have everything was a lie as long as men are holding the levers of power. And to go back to your point about men and authenticity, I mean, absolutely. Like I knew... mo (01:01:09.93) Mm-hmm. Me too. Ha ha ha. mo (01:01:22.357) Yeah. complete lie. Kristi (01:01:33.446) lots of men at Amazon who were maybe a little more soft-spoken, just quieter. And it was a tough place for them too. I mean, they were not, even if they had really wonderful emotional intelligence and relationship skills, it was, I had this one guy, he was a product manager, he worked for me, he was great. And one reason he was so successful is he was so nice that people wanted to work with him. mo (01:01:42.158) 100%. Kristi (01:02:00.854) So he would go to other teams and ask them for their resources and they would be like, and he was nice in a real way. He would say, I understand the constraints you're under and here's where I think I can help you. And he was so good at relationships that they were like, okay. Yeah, he would work miracles. But like, was that guy ever gonna be a VP at Amazon? No, because he wasn't a jackass. Not that every VP was a jackass, but he was just. mo (01:02:08.192) Yeah. mo (01:02:15.106) Key. It's a diplomat. Yeah. mo (01:02:23.526) No. No, you have... right, right. But there is a high correlation, right? Kristi (01:02:30.91) Yeah, there's a high correlation. I was thinking of a couple wonderful ex-VPs I know there, and I was like, oh, I'm going to hear from them. Right? But, and I've heard from a lot of men who read the book, and they say, you know, obviously the gender piece I didn't experience directly, but I really related to this book regardless. And I think that speaks to the brutality of, you know, Amazon specifically, but mo (01:02:37.367) You're like, I better not say that. Kristi (01:03:00.026) tech in general and men were like, I was surprised. I didn't, I'm used to having men yell at me for my work. I'd be like, you're a whiner, blah, blah. I was ready for that. And it's just been letter after letter from men, either being like, wow, that was eye-opening or just I enjoyed it. But a lot of them saying like, I've really been suffering and thank you for validating that. Which, yeah. mo (01:03:01.525) Yeah. mo (01:03:05.59) Hahaha mo (01:03:10.136) Yeah. mo (01:03:20.723) Yes. I'm so glad because it's true. It's not specific to women. The suffering extends and men are put in this box as well. Like I doubt that anyone who's aspiring to be a VP or above at Amazon can go around talking lovingly about his children and how much he plays with them on the weekends and how he has to go pick them up at daycare and still make it. Right. That's not the way it goes in our society. And we need to change that. So the system is broken. It's not, you know, something we all. Kristi (01:03:29.91) Right. Kristi (01:03:41.354) Right, right. Now. Kristi (01:03:49.492) Mm-hmm. mo (01:03:50.798) can work on because there are quite so many men, I'm sure, who are loving fathers and should be able to discuss their kids without fear of being thought of as someone who's not in it to win it or whatever, not serious. You know, it's just, so we all are shackled by this stuff. It really is not good for anyone. Kristi (01:03:56.098) Oh yeah. Kristi (01:04:04.727) Right. Kristi (01:04:09.486) I knew a couple of men who were executives who would put on the calendar, like, oh, I'm leaving at two next Tuesday to go to my daughter's school play. And I thought, this is amazing. This is really fantastic. And it sort of makes it safe for other people. But most of the men I knew had stay-at-home wives. And these were not women who had been raised to stay at home. These were women with degrees from Harvard Law, Stanford MBAs. mo (01:04:18.742) That's how it changes. mo (01:04:23.689) Awesome. mo (01:04:29.809) Mm, also true. Kristi (01:04:36.678) And they would all say, well, we decided it just made more sense for her to be the one to stay home. And I'm thinking, I understand this, maybe when you're breastfeeding, but why does it inherently make more sense if your kids are seven and eight for the woman to be home? Like, why? Either one of you could stay home if you want someone at home, but somehow it's always the woman. And... mo (01:04:41.576) Mm. mo (01:04:45.452) Yeah. mo (01:05:00.316) always the woman. Kristi (01:05:01.51) I just thought it was funny how easily they just, everyone just seemed to assume that like, well, of course it should be the woman. And I'm thinking like this woman has the same earning potential as you do or wage gap aside. Yeah, maybe even more. These are women who were like heavy hitters. These are alphas, I guess if you use that kind of language. And I was like, and they're raising kids and in 10 years they're going to want to rejoin the workforce. It's going to be really hard. mo (01:05:11.) Yeah, or maybe even more. Yeah, exactly. mo (01:05:19.655) Yeah. mo (01:05:27.65) Yeah. Kristi (01:05:28.654) But in the meantime, why does it never, why is this always assumed that it should be the woman who gives up her career? mo (01:05:34.698) It's we've got a good bit of work to do on a lot of fronts in the society, but that's definitely one that we should embark on. But I know Amazon, I remember distinctly seeing an article come out in the New York Times and it was I forget which year you may know, 2018 perhaps. Okay. Kristi (01:05:41.612) Yeah. Kristi (01:05:47.95) Mm-hmm. Kristi (01:05:51.68) A couple years before that, I want to say 16, maybe 17. Yeah. mo (01:05:54.638) 2016. Yeah, and that was kind of the first peek behind the curtain at Amazon corporate. We've all heard of the brutal conditions at Amazon warehouses. That's very well known. But this one was a piece in the New York Times. And it really laid bare some of the inner workings of the corporate environment and some of the problems with gender. And you detail it in the book. And what was really fascinating to me was the response, which I don't recall as an outsider. Kristi (01:06:03.619) Yeah. mo (01:06:21.406) to Amazon, but the response by Jeff Bezos himself. So would you share a little bit about what that article was and then your impression of it, as well as the internal response by Jeff and that other guy? Nick, persona non grata. Kristi (01:06:22.754) Yeah. Kristi (01:06:33.058) Yeah. Nick. So Nick. So Jodie Cantor, who has since won a Pulitzer Prize for writing about Harvey Weinstein, and me too, she and Megan Toohey broke that story. She was writing this in-depth article about Amazon, and I actually ended up being one of her sources. I was referred to her and I thought, you know what, yeah, I'll talk to her. And I mostly... since I've been there a long time, she mostly was like, does this sound plausible to you? Does this sound like the kind of thing that could have happened? And I would say, yeah, or I'd refer her to others. So I'm not, I didn't give her direct information, but the article was on the front page of the Times and it was a long dive into the white collar corporate culture at Amazon, which as you said was the first anyone had really talked about that. And there was a lot about gender and a lot about just the brutality on everyone and the sort of. Darwinism and everything. And it made a huge splash. I mean, it was national conversation and people were talking about it. And people, you know, internally, of course, like nothing got done that day, or maybe the next day everyone's talking about it. I, you know, I knew it was coming. It was huge. And it was a long, I think it took her, I didn't know, I know more about journalism now. It took her like, I think eight months to write it because it just takes, she's a feature writer. mo (01:07:41.826) I mean, yeah, right. Like that was huge. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You knew. mo (01:07:55.85) I believe it. Well, you want it to be well researched too, right? Defensible. Yes. It was a big piece. Kristi (01:07:59.138) Yeah, and well-corroborated, exactly. It's a really big deal. That's why she was asking. Yeah, it was huge. And she had reporters contributing stuff. And so I think she called me the night before it was coming out and said, just heads up, it's coming out. Like you don't know until the day before. And so I was just like convinced that people would be able to look at me and see that I had talked to her, so they didn't. I was terrified. I was just like, hmm, it was an article, you know? mo (01:08:24.284) terrifying. mo (01:08:28.223) Wasn't me. Yeah, weird. What? Kristi (01:08:29.63) In the newspaper? Yeah, what's up? So it was I remember there was this online email alias kind of like slack would be now and a lot of people were talking about it and mostly men and about a third of them were like This sounds terrible the things that she is describing and if these things are happening we need to crush them. This is awful You know another third were like You know, yeah, this is a tough environment. It's not right for everyone. And then a third were basically like the women are lying. You know, there's no way these things are happening. They have a bone to pick, you know, they're all lying. And so I actually sort of, oh, and then this, okay, so this is what happened. This guy who had been at the company for like 18 months, joined the conversation and said, well, I actually just wrote a blog entry on LinkedIn. mo (01:09:03.048) Oh my god, no! mo (01:09:20.524) I'm gonna go. Kristi (01:09:25.53) and where you can find out my take on this as a long time Amazonian. And I was like, Oh, goody. And dude, I'm like, let's go see what you have to say. So I go over there and read it. And it was just, I mean, I was like, I'm going to kill someone. I'm going to punch a wall. And I'm not that kind of person. I had to read parts that out loud to my office mate. She was like, I'm going to kill someone. And it was him basically being like, mo (01:09:30.918) and a dude. Kristi (01:09:51.39) Amazon has no problem with gender. And I know that because Amazon is a meritocracy and merit. I know the whole like, oh, you know, and, and data is gender blind. And I'm like, how are you so stupid as to think data is gender blind? Like someone decides what data matters. Someone decides what to measure. Like humans do this. And he also was like, he was like, well, I, my mentor is a woman. So therefore. mo (01:09:57.851) Oh! mo (01:10:05.632) Oh mo (01:10:13.144) So painful. Kristi (01:10:20.402) And then he said, I also know several women who've come back from maternity leave. So therefore, I was like, God, do they need a job? You know, so it was just the dumbest, dumbest worst thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. And I actually wrote to the alias saying in much more diplomatic language, you know, Nick, it just wasn't your place to say what it's like to be a woman here because you can't possibly know. mo (01:10:20.5) I can't. mo (01:10:24.692) Oh mo (01:10:46.503) Not your jam. Kristi (01:10:48.834) Like, I can't say what it's like to be a man at Amazon. You could have quoted some women, the hubris, to think you know. And I said, I'm happy to discuss this with you over coffee sometime. I didn't want to have coffee with him, but I was like, you have to offer the olive branch. I never heard a word from him. So I eventually got over it. And a day or so later, I was on a run in Ravenna Park near my house. And I... mo (01:10:51.114) Right. The hubris. Are you kidding? Like, come on. mo (01:11:01.23) This is so nice of you. mo (01:11:07.254) Weird. Kristi (01:11:15.622) flopped down on the grass at the end, pulled my phone out. And Jeff Bezos had written an email to the entire company about the New York Times piece. The only time in my memory that he ever did that. Like he doesn't just send out like, hey y'all, yeah. And he will get the question right, right. And I think he knew this was big enough that he had to do it. And so he basically said, you know, he said, I don't recognize this Amazon. mo (01:11:27.958) Hmm, it touched the nerve. He sends the question mark emails that send people running. Yeah Kristi (01:11:45.014) with you, you know, and, and I, if these things are going on, they, I mean, he said some of the right things, you know, although he also was like, I think if anyone's not happy here, they should leave, which is, have you noticed that when women are sexually harassed, people are always like, we should leave, like, how many times should a woman have to like give up her health insurance, interrupt her income, find it move, take her kids out of school? I mean, like, the, the answer is not for women to just mo (01:11:55.67) Alright, bien. mo (01:12:04.736) Exactly! mo (01:12:08.481) Oh my gosh. Kristi (01:12:12.806) remake their lives every time some guy grabs their ass, you know, that is not it. It's like, sorry. So I get to the end of this email and it's kind of, I'm just like, whatever, Jeff. And then he said, for an alternate point of view, this, this employee has written something that I think you should read. And so for Jeff to link to that and tell us to read it, that was an endorsement of the point of view. Like this man does not. mo (01:12:17.284) That's not the answer, okay? mo (01:12:40.334) That is... unbelievable. Does no one have a PR agent? Like, come on! Kristi (01:12:41.894) recommend things he doesn't agree with. And I, I know what Amazon's PR is not Amazon's strong suit. I'll tell you, like it never has been. And it's, they're very weak on that front and deliberately for a while because they just thought, you know, who cares? But they've, right, right. And I know some individual PR people there who are fantastic at their jobs, but like it's not structurally, it's their mo (01:12:50.35) Clearly not! Jesus. mo (01:12:58.142) We don't need it, we're so big. mo (01:13:03.735) Mm-hmm. Kristi (01:13:06.926) bad. Like they blatantly lie. They lie about doing stack ranking. Like they, there's just untrue statements in the press all the time. Cause that's, you know, sometimes Pierre does that. But I, I think it was a tipping point for me. I, I went home and I showed my husband, you know, who already knew this guy wrote this, like he already knew his name. Cause I had come home being like this person named Nick did this thing, you know? And I'm going to tell you all about it. And I showed him Jeff's email and he was just like, mo (01:13:14.518) Man. mo (01:13:28.406) This Nick dude! Kristi (01:13:35.854) Ho ho ho. Wow. Yeah. mo (01:13:37.354) I mean, that's war, right? Like to link to that is just like, are you kidding me? That's beyond just obtuse. Yeah. Kristi (01:13:42.322) It was basically, yeah, linking to a man's opinion of what it's like to be a woman at Amazon. And like Jeff Bezos is not a stupid or thoughtless person. Like he had to have known what he was doing. And I never experienced him in my, you know, my, and I was around him a fair amount. Like he never come, he's come across as some blowhard or sexist guy. He's just kind of geeky. He's funny. But I thought, oh, this. mo (01:13:52.274) Not a stupid guy. Right? mo (01:14:08.266) Right. Checked. Kristi (01:14:12.794) Yeah, yeah, this is pre-checked. But I was like, this is my last, like my last hope that Jeff Bezos is going to say, hey, we should be curious about this. Like he always, he would always say to people, yeah, he being curious was very valuable at Amazon. And he would say when there's anecdotes that don't fit the data, sometimes that's a sign that you should investigate that anecdote, because it could mo (01:14:26.382) Curious about everything else, right? Yeah, like, in curiosity on this. Yes! Kristi (01:14:42.486) And so the thing to do would have been to say, I'm gonna be curious about this. I have to admit, this isn't my experience, but why would it be? We're gonna look into this. I need to understand more. I mean, that's a very dignified, yeah, it's sort of, it's like, yeah, this is exactly right. We're gonna look at it, we're taking it seriously. And instead he just said, well, this guy has a point of view. I think you should. mo (01:14:50.945) Yeah. mo (01:14:56.194) That would have been a perfect response actually. Like fine. mo (01:15:07.719) This guy over here. Kristi (01:15:08.778) And this dude has been here for 18 whole months, which actually is a long time for Amazon because a lot of people don't make it that long. I was like, he has a right to think of himself as a long-term employee because 18 months is a long time there. And I just realized at the time, if Jeff cared about gender at Amazon, Jeff is so smart and he has so many crazy ideas that turn out to be amazing ideas. mo (01:15:14.358) That's true! mo (01:15:21.862) Oh my gosh. mo (01:15:36.295) Yeah. Kristi (01:15:37.546) it would be different. If he cared, it would be different. And I watch Amazon's diversity statistics, because they're reported annually. And they've actually come a long way on hiring Black employees and promoting them into management or having them in management. With women, it's like a couple of percentage, a couple of tenths of a percentage point a year. I mean, the progress has just been, glacial is a compliment, you know? And all that tells me is that mo (01:15:44.558) Mm-hmm. mo (01:15:50.53) That's good. mo (01:15:56.695) Mm. mo (01:16:01.974) Yeah. Kristi (01:16:07.878) They don't care enough because they could do something. I also think, I mean, I know locally, a lot of women just won't take that phone call. They just won't, they won't answer the Amazon recruiters call because they've known too many people who, like the word starts to get out. And especially if you have kids, I don't have kids, but if you have children, it's a very hard place to work. And so I... mo (01:16:11.746) they could do. mo (01:16:26.996) It does. mo (01:16:33.63) Yeah, I actually have a friend who came back after 13 years there after her mat leave and she went from having a huge org of 150 direct reports to being given a program manager role with no direct reports and she was like, I'm out, I'll take the voluntary leave, but that isn't really, I mean, she probably had a case, but who, I mean, that's a huge undertaking. You have a new kid, you wanna take on a legal kid? Come on, but, and she likewise did not get an exit interview, so that's a thing. Kristi (01:16:50.879) Seriously, yeah. Kristi (01:16:55.808) Right. Yeah, like. Kristi (01:17:02.786) And that's not how leave is, like you're supposed to come back to a job that's like roughly commensurate. Yeah, it may not be, and that's program manager, that's not even like a principal role. That's crazy. mo (01:17:06.338) Commensurate, exactly. mo (01:17:12.286) It's like, it's, when she told me the story, I was like hitting the wall. I was punching walls. I was, yeah, I was like, seriously. But again, like that's a huge burden to place on the woman again who was wronged. Hey, go get a lawyer, go like put everything, come on. Right, it's too much. Kristi (01:17:16.43) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. I know one woman who sued Amazon, she had cancer for many years and she's fine now, but you know, it impacted her performance. It was advanced breast cancer and she had to like have multiple surgeries. I mean, it's amazing that she is alive today. And eventually she was let go and she sued. And I think she got, I don't know for sure, I'm pretty sure she got some kind of settlement. mo (01:17:34.782) Good. Yeah, it does impact. mo (01:17:41.902) Gosh, I'm glad she is. Kristi (01:17:52.29) But like it took a long time and it's extra stress and it takes money to hire a lawyer. And again, like the burden is on the woman. So I just remember I kind of gave up at that point. I left the company a couple of years later, but it clarified some things for me. I was like, well, Jeff, he isn't going to get it. And I will say that coming out of that article, Amazon did something really interesting, which is they developed a maternity leave program. We already had maternity leave, but they made it. mo (01:17:52.654) Mm. mo (01:18:01.819) Mm-hmm Kristi (01:18:22.398) so that you could share it with your partner. And you could share it with your partner even if your partner worked at a different company. So basically you could say, I'm gonna do this. And then for the last month, I want my husband to be able to stay at home with our kid. And they worked this out so that you could do this. I have no idea, no idea how they worked out. It's radical and innovative and cool. And it told me again, like if they wanted to apply the same thinking. mo (01:18:30.256) Oh, wow. mo (01:18:37.218) Very interesting. mo (01:18:41.238) Yeah, that seems really difficult, but I guess that's great they did that. Yeah. Kristi (01:18:51.222) to women, just women's issues in general, they could do it. They were very forward. They could change the world. Exactly, exactly. I was like, they can do really hard things. They're very forward thinking about trans issues, either trans or trans affirming care was covered by insurance way back when, very good about supporting gay issues, all these things. It's just somehow women. mo (01:18:53.932) Yeah. They could change the world. That's what they want you to do, right? Yeah. mo (01:19:06.93) Mm-hmm. mo (01:19:12.194) great. mo (01:19:18.594) Hmm. That persistent nag in our world, the 51% of the population. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Kristi (01:19:20.26) But they just don't... Yeah. Yeah, and it's so much talent. And you know, women are the bulk of consumer spenders in America. And I always thought, don't you want people at the top who know your core customer in a way that you just can't as a dad? Right, right, right. Yeah, it was just so odd. And, uh. mo (01:19:30.582) I know, I don't understand, come on. mo (01:19:40.45) We are very good at spending money. Don't you want our money? What is wrong with you? mo (01:19:48.019) It is. Kristi (01:19:49.042) It just is what it is. You know, I think part of it is that there's not much turnover at the top. Well, there is now, but for a long time there wasn't. And so it was all these guys who come to work at Amazon in their 20s. And Jeff had worked with them all for 15 years and, you know, a very tight knit group. And so it kind of was like a boys club, not in a hostile way, but just. There's just no room for a girl in the, in the fort. mo (01:19:53.506) Hmm. mo (01:20:02.083) Wow. mo (01:20:06.322) Yeah. mo (01:20:10.962) Yeah, and that's a struggle. Women, we often find ourselves to be the only one at the table, and there's still this, I think, pervasive feeling like, oh, there's only room for so many people at the table. So that's another thing to overcome, but it's, man, it's rough out there. Yeah, and then people, the glass cliff is alive and well. Boeing just put in Stephanie Pope as the commercial CEO, and I'm like, great, she's, yes. I was like, Kristi (01:20:23.123) Right. Kristi (01:20:27.394) that you check the box. Mm-hmm, it is. Kristi (01:20:37.838) They did? Oh my. mo (01:20:40.642) Awesome classic textbook corporate America. Let's give a woman this just complete hellhole of the job and see her fail always Yep, that no one could fix Exactly that men wouldn't touch with a freaking 10-foot pole because they know it's a terrible job and women think it's the only chance They'll get so they take it and then they fail and then everyone says look woman just can't hack it at the top It happens over and over and Mercer mayor like oh Kristi (01:20:45.486) They constantly give the woman the terrible problem to clean up that might, that may not be doable. Right. Yeah. Right. Kristi (01:21:03.478) Right. I guarantee you, I guarantee you she had that conversation, even in her own head, she probably thought this job is probably undoable, but it's also my only chance. Should I do it? Yeah. And if I fail, I will have to, I will stand in for all women. They don't see us as individuals. It's like, I heard a man say the other day, when a woman lies about rape, it just makes it harder for all women. And I was like, why though? mo (01:21:10.815) Yeah. Yep, it's my only chance. Man. mo (01:21:23.158) I know. Kristi (01:21:31.33) Like you need to unpack that statement. It only makes it harder for all women if you think we're all basically one being. If a man lies about being mugged, it doesn't make another man less likely to be believed. It's just, but they don't see it. Yeah, yeah. mo (01:21:36.502) the same. mo (01:21:43.25) More exactly. It's such a such a hypocritical thing. Hopefully we'll get there. I do have hope and I think Gen Z to throw them a bone on this front. Like they are very, very intolerant of this kind of behavior and I love them for it. And I think that they're standing up for what's right and it's going to benefit all of us of all generations. Kristi (01:21:51.394) Yeah. Kristi (01:21:56.206) Oh yeah. It's... It's great. I love how intolerant they are. I think when I look at them, I laugh sometimes because they haven't learned how to use... They don't necessarily have the skills yet for addressing this stuff. They have a way to express that it's not okay, but they also haven't amassed a lot of power yet. So I think it's going to be interesting to see them grow into their late 30s, early 40s, when they've got the experience, the power, and the skill to be like, I'm going to change this. mo (01:22:08.878) I'm gonna go to bed. Right. Mm-hmm. Right? mo (01:22:27.047) I agree. the way this is, yeah. That's a really good point. I think I'm feeling more hopeful about the workforce of tomorrow in large part due to them and the active. And I'm gonna throw millennials in there too because I'm a very elderly millennial. So, but like we just won't stand for things that may have gone unnoticed or unsaid in the past. And so change I think is on the way. So at least there's that. Mm-hmm. Kristi (01:22:31.946) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kristi (01:22:38.924) Mm-hmm. Same. Kristi (01:22:43.528) Yeah. Kristi (01:22:50.85) Right. And I see that with young men too, like they're just, they have the inherited biases like anyone, but they do seem much more, I mean, they're just much more comfortable with women and people with different sexual orientations and gender identities than even the best men of my generation. You know, it was just different. It was just different then. Yeah, it's just more normalized. I mean, I don't think I had knowingly met a trans person until I was... mo (01:23:05.506) Yeah. I agree. mo (01:23:13.098) Yeah. It's more exposure too. Yeah. Yep. Kristi (01:23:22.926) 32 or something. And it kind of blew my mind, you know? And now it's just like, yeah, it's like a percentage of the population. It's like some people have red hair, you know? Yeah, yeah. mo (01:23:24.679) Yeah. mo (01:23:28.894) It's normal. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And it's just heartbreaking to consider how many people felt like they had to deny that part of themselves until, I mean, you know that the percentages haven't swung so wildly since the last generation. There were people who were enduring this and not comfortable. They were there. They just couldn't be themselves. And so yeah, there's actually a lot of hopefulness and optimism that I have for the future. But part of getting there is actually writing books just like this one. So. Kristi (01:23:38.329) Yeah. Still. Kristi (01:23:45.966) They were there. Right. Kristi (01:23:56.291) Yeah. mo (01:24:02.642) Again, thank you for writing this book. I think it's a really important book. It's also hysterical. So I just, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that you wrote it. I think it's something that should be a critical piece of everybody's library. And I just, I loved it and I loved this conversation and I'm so grateful that you were here. So thank you, Christy. Kristi (01:24:05.584) You're welcome. It is fun. Kristi (01:24:16.846) No. Kristi (01:24:20.894) Me too. Yeah, so I'm really grateful for the opportunity. I thought it was a blast. Yeah. mo (01:24:27.25) It was so much fun. And so tell people where can they get this book, besides Amazon, and although I suppose you could probably buy it there too if you want, but where can they learn more about you? Yeah, wherever you buy it, just buy it, but yeah. Kristi (01:24:32.383) Yeah. Yes, and I'm glad. Kristi (01:24:42.286) I remember saying to my agent, what if Amazon won't stock this book? And she was like, well, that would be the best publicity you could ever get. mo (01:24:48.451) It would honestly kind of wish that it happened for you because can you imagine, oh my gosh, that would have been hysterical, but. It's a little too obvious too. Orwell's 1984 and your book are gone. Kristi (01:24:53.194) Right. I had a feeling it wouldn't because there, you know, there are philosophies to stock everything. And, you know, I, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, yeah, I would be like, and I lived for a, right, that would be actual, it wouldn't be like censorship because that's a government thing, but it would, it would look pretty bad. I lived for a year as a teenager in this very small town in New Mexico where there was no bookstore. And I come from South Florida where mo (01:25:09.846) Hahaha! Kristi (01:25:22.518) It's fairly urban, you know, like heavy suburban, bookstores, movie theaters, clubs, you know, all that stuff. And I have been, I think back to that year and how much it sucked for a bookworm to have no access to things. And I'm like, you know, Amazon is a godsend for a lot of people who live in like these towns where they, are they maybe a one chain bookstore or something? Yeah, a book desert, or maybe it's like, you're a gay teenager and you don't want to go to your local bookstore and take the book you really want. mo (01:25:34.652) I bet. Yeah, absolutely. It's like book desert, right? mo (01:25:48.71) Yeah. Good point. Kristi (01:25:49.538) to the counter, you know, so, so I've always had that point of view when people are like Amazon's the worst. I'm like, I bet you live in a city with good bookstores. So yes, you can get it at Amazon, you can get it at bookshop.org. You basically get it anywhere books are sold, including some airports, which is always a thrill because like when you're in the airport, you're like, I made it. I'm in the airport. Um, yeah. mo (01:25:57.68) Yeah. mo (01:26:07.35) That is amazing. You've made it and you will never be on if books could kill and if you haven't heard that podcast yet I'm sending it to you after. Oh, oh my gosh. But you're not the airport book they're gonna debunk. So anyway, yours is the one they'll stand behind. Ha ha ha. Kristi (01:26:16.51) That is a fun podcast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, no, I love, right? Exactly. I mean, maybe they could go after me for like, white privilege or whatever. But like, that's, that's fine. It's fine. I do have it. You know, I acknowledge it in the book, but I tried, I didn't want to go over, you know, I didn't want to spend the entire book apologizing. mo (01:26:34.803) You have it. Yeah. mo (01:26:40.146) Right, right, right. Kristi (01:26:40.334) myself, you know, so I decided not to do that, you know. There's also an audiobook which I read myself, so you can get that on Audible or basically wherever audiobooks are sold, and the paperback will be out in September, and, but go buy it now, don't wait, buy it now and then get it again, and exactly, and I will, mo (01:26:56.882) Yes, get it now. Get it now, folks. Yeah. Gifts for Christmas and other holidays, right? Kristi (01:27:07.51) If you want to know more about my other work, my other book, and my editorial services, it's just kristicoulter.com. It has links to other things and all the information you could want. Yeah, and contact information. Thank you. mo (01:27:17.57) Perfect. mo (01:27:23.066) I will link all of that in the show notes for everybody. Christy, this has been such a delight. I'm so happy to know that you're in Seattle with me. So thank you, I know. Sounds great, let's do it. But thank you, thank you so much. And can't wait to see what you come up with next because I'm sure this isn't your last work. There you go, all right. Thank you. Kristi (01:27:28.376) Thank you. We'll have to meet up in person someday. Yeah. Kristi (01:27:41.278) No, but we're here on a novel, so yep. Let's see. Thank you.